Speaker 0 00:00:00 So who’s going first, you know, you’re going first.
Speaker 1 00:00:04 I don’t play don’t even play mess being bow hair scarf, which by the way, when she told me that she had a hair scarf, that she was trying to tie, I visually saw in my mind, the Victorian, no, uh, hair necklaces and roads. Cause by the way, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. By the way, in Victorian times, this is unrelated. I think to what we’re talking about, I don’t actually know. Um, they used to make reeds and bracelets and necklaces from the decease and broken hair and broaches. They were obsessed too, like hair art, which, I mean, it was like their version of friendship, bracelets, because you know, like that like plastic courting that you like loop around a bunch of times and stop. That’s
Speaker 0 00:00:48 What, that’s how they did it. Like, but see,
Speaker 1 00:00:50 Now you’re visualizing it with me. Okay. Now she’s telling me I’m having trouble tying my hair scarf and I am visualizing like
Speaker 0 00:00:58 A fucking hairy scarf, just
Speaker 1 00:01:00 Like a mass of extensions. Like, you know, those like ponytail extensions, but like connected to your head and wrapped around you and you’re trying to tie it. So I’m like visualizing you braiding it. I was having like a horrific Emily vision of this. And then you were like, no, a scarf to tie around my head for my hair, like a hair accessory. And I was like, Oh thank goodness. Because I was
Speaker 0 00:01:25 Experiencing horrifying
Speaker 1 00:01:27 Things that now I’ve, you know, subjected everybody else to because that’s what,
Speaker 0 00:01:32 That’s what kind of person you are. Yes. Um, also we don’t live in Victorian times. Why in the fuck would that be the first thing that you think of are really about
Speaker 1 00:01:43 Queen Victoria and the gospel
Speaker 0 00:01:45 listen to this. They are that’s normal. No, they already made fun of me about the stupid catch-up on rice comment that you made in our very first fucking episode. So many people so get ready. Cause I’m going to share things about you too. Well, that’s what sisters do. That’s all right. I feel better now that I got to annoy you so much earlier, before we started recording,
Speaker 1 00:02:19 I love that I can be here for you in that way. Cause often you are here for me in that way. So it’s nice to have the roles reversed from time to time
Speaker 2 00:02:29 .
Speaker 0 00:02:41 So I’m here to talk to you today about tarot cards. Lovely. Um, I actually had a lot of fun. Well, okay. In the beginning I didn’t have that much fun doing, uh, research. Cause it was really boring. Cause I was looking at like the history part. So since it was super boring, I’m probably not going to go super into the like old, old history. Okay. The first documented actual like taro cards or tarot decks were from about 1442, 1450 in Italy. Um, guess what? They were regular playing cards, just also with an additional set of allegorical illustrated cards. So there’s 21. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:03:31 So you’re talking like spades clubs, diamonds hearts plus 22 extra cards. And that was like a deck, a game that they would play like that they would yeah.
Speaker 0 00:03:42 Yes, yes. So our original, so the deck of cards that we know that we like play Remy and shit with. Yeah. It all came from the same deck that taro came from. So it’s just like regular playing cards, but with an additional set of the allegorical cards, which is,
Speaker 1 00:04:00 It’s like all the extra Pokemon that you didn’t know were a part of the deck.
Speaker 0 00:04:05 I’m just saying now Oracle cards are called the, I can’t pronounce Italian anything. So Carthy dot triumph cards. Okay. And the suits were cups, swords coins and polo sticks, or what is known today, like the taro card world as wands or staves. And then there were the courts, which it consisted of a King and two other male underlings later they added the queen hopefully because somebody realized that even in an American, even in imaginary card world of only men, the world would end in flames. So, you know, you need a woman in there. Make sure that shit like stays top-notch. Um, so the additional allegorical cards were simply known as Triomphe or Trump cards in English. And so if you have the Triomphe cards and the fool to 78 card deck, which is what the taro decks consists of now. So the suit cards, the regular deck of cards is called the minor arc Archana or Kona. I think it’s our canine. I say Archana, maybe I’m wrong. Who knows? Um, and then the Trumpy cards are the major Archana and those are the allegorical cards. Right? So, uh, in the 15 hundreds there, the deck of cards became known as
Speaker 1 00:05:39 G appropriate. Ah, yummy. Yeah. I feel
Speaker 0 00:05:45 Like Mario. Um, anyways, so the game itself was played a lot like bridge. So in this game or a game that they used, the tarot cards for, uh, the players are dealt random cards and then used them to write quote unquote poetic verses about each other. Um, kinda like the kids’ game mash. What also, do you remember what was mash? Yes. It was sophisticated bash essentially. You’re like E yes. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1 00:06:20 All other, other reasons, other ways to use it, but like I did not know that.
Speaker 0 00:06:24 Okay. So let’s think about mash real quick. One. Do you remember how to play
Speaker 1 00:06:29 The mansion apartment shack house?
Speaker 0 00:06:31 Yes. Also. I didn’t remember how to play. So I had to maybe look it up on Instructables, but we’re going to just breeze past. Did you watch it
Speaker 1 00:06:41 Two or a? How cast? YouTube video? No, like making a cootie catcher and they’re like this means,
Speaker 0 00:06:48 And I forgot that’s what they were called. Uh, also, no, cause I’m like 90 and hate watching videos.
Speaker 1 00:06:54 90. You are a fresh 35.
Speaker 0 00:06:59 I am so offended right now. Bitch. We cannot fight. Oh wait, how old are you really? Did you see my eyebrows go into a straight line? Yeah, that’s what I had done
Speaker 1 00:07:16 Was to hide my own eyebrows.
Speaker 0 00:07:20 I said like, go up and your goofy little don’t look at my brows. Um, are you 31? Stop it. So, okay. Let’s think about mash real quick. Okay. So we all remember folding little cutie catcher and doing the like one, two, three, four, whatever you do that you got to pick a color, pick a number and then you get all your answers. So the way that I remember playing was you write mansion, apartment shack, house, and then you write for people that you are three people that you would want to end up with three jobs that you would want to end up with. Three. What else was there? Okay. Pets. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:08:05 It was like, yeah, it was like, you’re the person you’d end up with, um, the job, like the job, maybe a pet
Speaker 0 00:08:14 Location where you were going to live, but they weren’t all good. So that’s what I’m saying. So you, right. The person who’s getting the mass gen about them, right. Three. And then your friend fills in the last option with terrible fucking options. Right. Right. And then if we think about this game, it was a way for little kids to quote unquote, tell each other their futures. Yeah. But that’s why people assume that Tara was to tell you every tell about your future. So like it’s not like it’s Palm reading. Exactly. So why did that get so weirded
Speaker 1 00:08:49 Out about it? It’s just a lot
Speaker 0 00:08:52 Like, okay. Why do people get weirded out about it though? If it’s like an adult version of the game of fucking mash,
Speaker 1 00:09:02 I don’t even know. Wait, but like why do you get peop why, where did that come from?
Speaker 0 00:09:07 Honestly, I think it just stemmed from the fact that like this game, the Tyro
Speaker 1 00:09:10 , uh,
Speaker 0 00:09:13 G okay. That, um, you know, it, the route is that, yeah, it was meant to quote unquote, tell your future, but it was a game. So it’s supposed to be funny, but instead of the game part, and being funny, that faded away. And what was left was other supposed to tell your future kind of thing, which is dumb because, you know, I remember playing mash many a times and um, I never ended up marrying any of the Backstreet boys. So like, I don’t like, where’s this going?
Speaker 0 00:09:46 Um, so there is this one lady. So she was like the first taro historian. She was also a lady. So that’s cool in, uh, she was born in 1905 and she died in 1998. Her name is Gertrude Moakley. And within her research, um, also she had a 40 year career with the New York city public library. But, um, so she did a lot of research. She wrote a book and according to her, she says the illustrations in the major Archana, which is the fool to the death card. And all those in between were inspired by costumes of figures who participated in medieval carnival parades, which is interesting. Yes. So in 1966 when she was 61, um, I did math, hopefully I’m right. Uh,
Speaker 1 00:10:40 Oh, look at you doing the man. Get you.
Speaker 0 00:10:43 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, she published a book called taro cards painted by but then, but wow, that was terrible. Okay, good.
Speaker 0 00:11:00 Another historian is quoted as saying the first time Tara was set in its medieval context, without the distraction of irrelevant occult theories, Moakley set on more than one occasion that she appreciated the beauty and the complexity of symbolism, but she deplored how Colt theories and mythology had contaminated taro history, which like girls, same. Um, don’t get me wrong. I love stuff. A cult too. But like it’s such a unique tool that I feel like so many people can use and it just overpowers it because everybody assumes that it’s something weird or you’re going to get ghosts or demons or some dumb shit. Like, like with my friend who was like, I don’t want to do, I don’t want to read the tarot cards because I don’t want to bring that Juju into my house. And I found myself, I bought my taro cards. Well, mom bought them for me, but she, them for me off of Amazon, do you think there’s some dude in an Amazon warehouse? That’s just like, Oh, okay. We made this deck of cards. Let me just put a curse on it real quick so that anybody who uses it, it’s going to summon all the demons.
Speaker 3 00:12:05 Spoiler alert. He’s not in the warehouse, but he is the CEO. Oh, he might’ve just resigned. I don’t remember.
Speaker 0 00:12:13 I think he just resigned. That makes sense though. Coming from the top
Speaker 3 00:12:18 Anyway, it’s a trickle-down effect.
Speaker 0 00:12:20 Yeah. So for me, it’s just like, come on, like, yeah. Anyways. So, okay. One little more tidbit about this cute little lady who, uh, was the Tara historian. Um, in 1980. Yes. Gertrude in 1989, she was living in a retirement community. She was 94 years old and she did a talk on tarot cards for the other residents of the community and red cards for all the, for the residents who wanted them done at 94. Isn’t that the cutest little thing you’ve ever heard. I want her to read my cards. That’s very nice. Well, she’s not alive anymore. Probably because that was in 1989, but you’d have to know. Gertrude could be going still. It’s those curse decks. I tell you,
Speaker 3 00:13:08 I know everyone thinks it’s like the fountain of youth or other weird things. Nope, truly it’s Gertrude and taro folks.
Speaker 0 00:13:16 Oh my God. Wait. I just thought about it. Cause my dumb ass was like, Oh Trudy. And then I was like, Oh my God is every girl who’s named Trudy. Her name is actually Gertrude. Does everybody else know this? And I know
Speaker 3 00:13:29 First time that that thought occurred to me.
Speaker 0 00:13:32 Okay. I’m glad it also just occurred to you. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:13:35 Now if I ever meet another Trudy, I’m going to be like, is your full name? Gertrude. Wait, have you ever met a Trudy? Yeah, a couple of times.
Speaker 0 00:13:43 Oh I haven’t at least I don’t think so. Maybe I just immediately forgot her. I don’t know. So the first person to like put this mystical meaning onto it was this guy named Antwan court dig a bean he’s French. So you would have to say that properly.
Speaker 3 00:14:04 Okay. I’d have to see it spelled and also I’m not French. So no guarantees.
Speaker 0 00:14:08 I speak French anyways. Um, so he claimed it was based on a Holy book written by Egypt priests and brought to Europe by gypsies from Africa
Speaker 3 00:14:21 Inaccurate load of bullshit. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:14:24 Inaccurate. And obviously taro cards predated the presence of gypsies in Europe who actually came from Asia rather than Africa. Really wrong. So then there’s this other guy, uh, Telia. Who’s also a French who echoed, uh, get the lean. I’m just going to say Antwan, uh, whose beliefs echoed Antwan’s with like secret Egypt wisdom. Now keep in mind at this time, everybody was like obsessed with like they literally,
Speaker 1 00:14:54 What are we
Speaker 0 00:14:55 Late 18th century. Oh yes. Okay. Obsessed with them. They’re literally digging up mummies, grinding them into powder and selling it as medicine at this time in history. Yeah. You didn’t know about that. I did not know about, Oh my God. I was going to do, I was going to do a, uh, a topic about that, but there just wasn’t like enough for like a full topic. But yeah, people really did that. That’s why there’s not that many mummies left because Victorian people literally ground them up and ate them this medicine
Speaker 1 00:15:27 Y’all y’all y’all y’all like Victorian style houses are cute and all Gothic. Sure. I like it as an architecture form and let’s wear black, but like Victoria, the shit that comes out of like Victorian era stuff, just like the hair scarf, just like this is hair
Speaker 0 00:15:47 That was in your head. It
Speaker 1 00:15:49 Existed ephemerally and my point still stands. It’s like, how was this popular to do? And everyone was like, guy it’s what’s in right now. I’m going to share it on my tech talk.
Speaker 0 00:16:02 Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. So yeah. People are like, Ooh, mummy’s mystical, magical medicine and plebes. Really? Yeah, exactly. When they’re really just a bunch of cannibals eating
Speaker 1 00:16:15 Snorting, dead people like that’s disgusting.
Speaker 0 00:16:17 Well, they weren’t snorting it. I don’t think actually now I don’t know,
Speaker 1 00:16:21 But you’re seeing it. They’ve got their hair necklaces on. They’re wearing all black and they’re just going, Oh my God, sorry everybody.
Speaker 0 00:16:30 All right. We’re going to get off the gross topics because I’m starting to feel the heebie-jeebies
Speaker 1 00:16:33 So people are grinding up mummies and they think it’s really cute and fun.
Speaker 0 00:16:38 Yeah. So they think that ancient Egyptians had all this secret ancient wisdom, hence why they wanted to eat them. Um, Jesus cares. And like at this time, yeah. Ancient Egyptian religion, and any writings were believed to have held major insights to human existence. Right. So this dude Italia claims that the cards originated from the Egyptian book of talk. No thought, are you sure? All right. It is okay. Be along to the God of wisdom. And he published his own deck in 1789.
Speaker 1 00:17:15 I’m
Speaker 0 00:17:15 Sorry, what are you laughing at? My bow.
Speaker 1 00:17:20 Oh, I was horrified for half a and I was like, Sarah, don’t see Dick. Like, it’s a very long story to tell you that he made, uh,
Speaker 0 00:17:33 In fact he was the first guy to come up with a Dick pic incorrect, I think had been around
Speaker 1 00:17:39 Mostly shocked. I was like, Oh no.
Speaker 0 00:17:43 Yeah. So he was the original Dick pic person, which is probably incorrect. I like, that’s something the Romans would have done anyways. Oh yeah, fuck. Right.
Speaker 4 00:17:53 But they all, they were all there. Nevermind. I’m not going to get
Speaker 0 00:17:55 Into it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:17:59 Deck. So it was a deck deck of cards. We’re talking about.
Speaker 0 00:18:02 This is on deck deck of tarot cards in 1789. And it was one of the first decks back to be designed for divination. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:18:17 Um, and divination deck.
Speaker 0 00:18:20 Now, anytime I say deck, I’m just gonna think deck.
Speaker 4 00:18:23 I know, but to me, no, no, no. But like, I’m going to reset. Reset here. Okay. I, in my dream house, when we play mash later, I want to have a divination deck, you know, like instead of a widow’s walk, I want like a divination deck.
Speaker 0 00:18:39 Okay. So yeah, it’s the first divination day. However, however, um, it’s just one type of deck. I can’t anymore
Speaker 4 00:18:54 Set it. Just say set it. I spit all over myself.
Speaker 0 00:18:57 So soon as he pulled your whole shirt to wipe your face, she saw, so it was um, it’s Oh my God. It’s uh, it’s just one type of card collection. It is used for divination. Others include common playing cards. I know. Right. They’re also used for divination and Oracle decks, which are, you know, like, um, their decks of cards that are designed by the artist specifically with their own like theme or like inspiration in mind. Right. Yeah. Um, and that they’re a lot of times they’re similar to taro, but they’re distinct. They’re not, they’re not completely like Tara because Tara has a lot of fucking cards, like 78. That’s a lot. Um, 78, 78 cards.
Speaker 4 00:19:59 I was just thinking, I was like, I wonder how any cards are in my Oracle deck because it’s a lot, I don’t know if I,
Speaker 0 00:20:05 I wonder if it’s 52.
Speaker 4 00:20:07 No, I think it’s more, I want to say it’s like, it’s gotta be up there to thick deck. It’s like, I can’t, my little hands can’t even shut me.
Speaker 0 00:20:13 No, it’s a thick deck. My little hands can’t even shuffle it. Um, that’s what she said. Oh my God. Were they? So what people consider to be the most popular taro deck is called the rider Waite Smith deck or the Pamela Coleman Smith illustrated white writer wait originally to be just called the writer. Wait, deck, um, name. Yeah. So writer is the publisher. So he didn’t even really do shit. And then weight was, he was a mystic of the order of the golden Dawn. Oh God,
Speaker 3 00:21:03 That sounds like a fucking,
Speaker 0 00:21:05 Like a weird cult, conspiracy theory group, whatever.
Speaker 3 00:21:09 Oh, okay. Never heard of one of those before. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:21:14 Um, so this deck has been hot. It has been continually printed since 1909. So it’s been more than a hundred years. And this has never been out of print and mostly Gertrude, Gertrude, Gertrude. Yeah. Um, she was the first author historian to respect Pamela Coleman Smith, who was the illustrator, this chick, she illustrated 78 fucking pictures for this deck. The Smith’s taro deck. Now it is, but it wasn’t until very recently, yo right. So I looked up on Amazon and most of the people call it the writer, wait, Smith deck adding her last
Speaker 3 00:21:59 It’s like Smith is before them alphabetically in that sense, like it should be fucking first
Speaker 0 00:22:06 Myth. Wait, writer, like who cares about publisher? Why does the publisher have to have his name in the deck anyways?
Speaker 3 00:22:12 Yeah. He can have a little like see in a circle published by on the back.
Speaker 0 00:22:17 Exactly. You know? Okay. So Pamela Coleman Smith, our wonderful illustrator who did all 78 of these images. Right? Um, she was born in 1878 in London to a Jamaican mother and a white American father. So I am heard of Pamela Coleman Smith before, by the way, um, in another podcast. And, um, you know, part of that podcast was talking about how they erased her from history because she was a woman. But in that podcast, they don’t mention she was born Jamaican mother and she’s black and nobody knows like what the actual buck.
Speaker 3 00:23:04 And they’re like, Oh yeah, we just raised her from history.
Speaker 0 00:23:06 Nobody. Yeah. And then it’s like, Oh, we’ll bring her back into history. But not let’s, let’s not bring up the fact that, you know, she’s not white. We’ll just pretend that she is,
Speaker 3 00:23:16 It’s like, this is why, you know, until the aliens destroy our network of electronic garbage. I know I sound like a crazy person right now, but basically until an asteroid hits the planet, like use the internet and all of the free knowledge that is out there up as much as you can, like, this is the shit that this is why this is stuff that like fires me up about the podcast specifically, because I’m like, this is stuff that we need to know. And it’s knowing that like you like, uh, I mean, I’m thinking about you, you literally went to art college and paid to go to art college. Did you hear about her then?
Speaker 0 00:23:54 No. That was the only thing that pissed me off. And like, yeah, we, I learned about Georgia O’Keeffe I didn’t even learn about her at art school actually, because she was a fine art painter and I was an illustration major, but like, it’s just one of those things that like people just, Ugh, Ugh. I just really bad
Speaker 3 00:24:12 Things are taught in school, which is why it’s like, if you have the resources to get on the internet, like fucking look, shut up, man. Like just, it’s so annoying.
Speaker 0 00:24:21 That’s what we do all the time. Oh, I know. I know. Pamela Coleman Smith, AKA pixie, her nickname. She turned art school in New York city at the Pratt Institute. Um, she left, however, in 1879, 1897, 79. She would have been one of years old, uh, without a degree B after the death of her mother. Oh, it’s her father. Yeah. And then her father also died two years later when she was 21. Oh my gosh. So this girl went through some shit. Um, so when she returned to England, after all that shit, she decided to join a traveling theater group. And during her travels, she became a skilled costume and set designer. Yes. Um, so she, uh, over her years of working and stuff like that, she developed her own styles and illustrator. Um, and her works where you are, her artwork was used by Bram Stoker and William Butler yields, who I will admit, I don’t know. I think they’re poetry artists now. Wait, what’s it called? Oh my God. What’s wrong with me? Whoops. Yep. Poets, um, in 1907. Okay. So this one kills me too. Um, her friend and photographer slash art promotes promoter, Alfred Stieglitz gave Smith exhibition space for her collection of paintings. So he’s a really famous photographer. Um,
Speaker 3 00:26:02 Say you said that very like,
Speaker 0 00:26:04 Cause he’s really well known in the art world is a very famous photographer. He it’s also, I mean, I love Georgia O’Keeffe and I went to her museum that’s in New Mexico and um, he was really good friends with her too. Um, so, you know, and they’re both really well known and yet Pamela Coleman Smith is not like the fuck, but anyways, so he gave her exhibition space for a collection of her paintings, which was a pretty big deal because at that time he, the work in his gallery, um, he was primarily focused on geography cause it was a new up and coming technology, um, works that did not sell, remained with Stieglitz and ended up in the Stieglitz, Georgia O’Keeffe archive at Yale university. And this was in 1907. Yeah. So she was
Speaker 5 00:26:59 Her late twenties. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:27:03 Um, so in 1901, um, William Butler, Yeats who she illustrated a book, she illustrated one of his books, forum of poetry. Um, he introduced her to his friends in the hermetic order of the golden Dawn. No. Yeah, yeah. I know. Right. Um, which when I think of that, I just think of fucking Moriarity from Sherlock. Cause that’s where I remember hearing that.
Speaker 5 00:27:33 Yes. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 0 00:27:35 Um, and at some point during her experience, she also met another poet and mystic Edward wait. So about eight years later, wait, commissioned her to do the artwork for a new tarot deck that he was interested in creating, um, wait, wanting to see a tarot deck in which every single card was illustrated. Um, not just the Al Gore iCal cards. So the Alco allegorical cards, the 20
Speaker 5 00:28:05 To anybody,
Speaker 0 00:28:08 The little owl, the, um, like the fool Def will operate all those cards. Those are allegorical cards and they were always illustrated. However, the deck of cards that we think of as a regular deck of cards that is also included in the taro deck, they were never illustrated themselves individually because probably cause that was a lot of work. Cause it was like 78 fucking cards. So up until this point like that hadn’t been done and he wanted to do that.
Speaker 5 00:28:35 Oh no. He wanted somebody else to do it for him. Yeah. Yeah. That’s true
Speaker 0 00:28:41 For this. The only known example of a fully illustrated deck was called the solar Blueskin deck, which was commissioned by another rich family in Milan, in the 1490s and Smith actually used this deck for her inspiration. And there are a lot of similarities in the symbolism between the two decks because she used to help her create all of the fucking illustrations for 78 fucking cards. Like that’s just intense to me
Speaker 5 00:29:07 That isn’t tense. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:29:09 So Smith was the first artist to create characters, representing the images in the lower cards, rather than just showing a group of cups or a group of coins or a group wants. Right. And get this, she completed the art for the deck in six months, 78 cards, 78 paintings because she liked use guash, which is like watercolor, but opaque. And, um, she did 78 of these paintings in six months, which is a really short,
Speaker 1 00:29:45 So it’s like she had to have been sitting on this. Right? Like it had to have been like an idea that, you know, she’s doing poetry’s, uh, illustration, she’s doing her own books and it’s other people it’s like, how do we not know that it was actually her idea? And she was like, Hey, by the way, if he ever want to taro deck illustrate. And he was like, ah, I came up with this brilliant idea that I’m going to have her do it for me.
Speaker 0 00:30:07 They were friends for like eight years. So like, I’m sure it was brought up multiple times
Speaker 1 00:30:13 And had to admit an ongoing conversation because you don’t just whip that. I mean, if it, or you could, but also if she, if she did that, you don’t just wait that out. Yeah. I know. I know. And less than six months, but then I’m also trying to get for credit because it’s like, what if she did? And then we also still don’t know about her and her amazing artistic prowess. Like
Speaker 0 00:30:34 Either way. It’s impressive. It’s very impressive. Yeah. So this is where it starts to get rough. Okay. When she did these illustrations, he just paid her a flat fee. She received no commission on the sales.
Speaker 1 00:30:51 So they were friends
Speaker 0 00:30:54 And I’m not very nice or friendly. Nope. And so, although she continued to produce illustrations, including several for the world war effort in world war one, she didn’t make much money from her artwork and never earned royalties for her taro images. Never, never, I can’t, although her work was popular, she never gamed like mass commercial success. And probably also not helped by the fact that she wasn’t even fucking mentioned in the taro deck that has been in print for more than a hundred years, by the way, I just can’t that’s. So she died panelists in Cornwall in September, 1951, which is fucking depressing afterwards, her personal effects, including unsold artwork were auctioned off to settle outstanding debt.
Speaker 1 00:31:51 That’s insane. And you know what I mean? This is like the thing about Tara though. It’s like, it’s so specific and I can, I can visualize that deck. It’s like, I know exactly what those cards look like. I didn’t know it was called the writer, whatever, or that they write or wait Smith. Yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t know what it was called and I knew nothing about where the illustrations come from, but it’s like, I have seen that all over the place for years and to not know anything about her, like that’s like, that’s like a comfort. I’m trying to think of like what to compare it to, you know, just robbing someone of credit like that is literally robbing them of credit for royalties.
Speaker 0 00:32:34 See back then, because she’s a woman and a woman of color in the fucking early, late 19th century, early 20th century. So like
Speaker 3 00:32:43 Another thing is like, what were, but if Georgia O’Keeffe, it’s like it’s Oh, now it’s just a can of worms everywhere.
Speaker 0 00:32:48 Yup. Yup. All the worms everywhere have so many questions. So this deck was specifically designed for divination and it included a book written by wait, the quote unquote author to explain the golden hermetic, the golden Dawn guy. Yeah. To explain the esoteric, meaning behind the images while the deck was popular. It really took off in popularity when Stuart Kaplan obtained the publishing rights and developed an audience for it in the early seventies. And this book helped renew interest in card reading with his book that he published called taro cards for fun and fortune telling. And he went on to write several volumes on taro. So now we’re jumping to today. Okay. Okay. So I was reading through like how stuff works.com and um, you know, basically what they were saying. It’s the same thing. Focus on yourself, your lessons, your obstacles, et cetera. Um, stay neutral. I eat don’t come in with like preconceived notions, which I think is honestly the most dangerous part of doing terrible with other people is the preconceived notions. Because then I think that if you come in with that kind of stuff, it doesn’t do it. Doesn’t have the maximum benefit for you. If you’re already thinking all this other stuff, do you know what I mean? Right.
Speaker 3 00:34:18 I am just forever going to use mash as an example, like,
Speaker 0 00:34:23 Right. And this is a great example.
Speaker 3 00:34:25 So as like, I don’t know, the next time I’m going to be doing Tara with someone other than you. Thanks to COVID. But literally it’s like, yeah. The note the next time that if the, should that come up, I’m literally going to be like, okay, so do you have preconceived notions about mash? Do you believe that like you’re going to live in a shack with Shaq?
Speaker 0 00:34:45 Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so like for those of you who don’t know, like when you pull taro cards, it’s not just like, Oh, I pulled this and I see the death card and it’s like, Oh, that means I’m going to die tomorrow. And actually to be honest, I really liked the death card because for me, that usually means signifies the end of something difficult and a new beginning, like I said, it’s really all about your interpretation.
Speaker 3 00:35:12 Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 0 00:35:13 And so like when you’re doing tarot cards, sometimes people do a OneCard poll just to see how they’re feeling that day. I’ll be honest. That’s what I do most just because fucking busy. And sometimes I don’t have the time to sit down and do the whole thing. Um, but there are different spreads. So it’s the card has its specific meaning to the deck or to your interpretations. And then the position that you put them in is another meaning. So like imagine like, you know, a little horseshoe made up of like seven cards right on the table in front of you. And the first card means, I think your past. And then the next card means immediate present. I think each card has a different meaning is obviously what I mean
Speaker 1 00:35:57 Three card spread kind of duty to be, I mean, to it’s like, I’m like past present future. There we go done.
Speaker 0 00:36:05 So I actually, um, I made my own spread. Oh yeah. For me. Um, are you
Speaker 5 00:36:14 Sure? I
Speaker 0 00:36:16 Think maybe mom liked to use it too. I would like to think that mom like to use it too.
Speaker 1 00:36:21 Tell me about that actually. Is it like a plus sign?
Speaker 0 00:36:25 Yeah. That’s just like a little plus sign that’s exactly.
Speaker 1 00:36:28 You did. Tell me about your spread. Actually. I didn’t know that until just now
Speaker 0 00:36:32 I came up with it because I’m pulling seven or the Celtic cross spread. It’s like 10 fucking cards. That’s just too much,
Speaker 1 00:36:42 Much by the time I get to like the eighth card, I’m like, wait, I forgot what I learned on the second card. Now I’ve got to go back and learn.
Speaker 0 00:36:49 Exactly. Yeah. So for like my little spread that I invented, you know, in the middle card is where you are now. The next card is like, where you’re trying to get to the top card is, um, lessons to be learned, which is a little bit more positive than like obstacles, right? The bright Trinity’s for growth. Yeah, exactly. The right card is, um, strengths and resources and the, the bottom card is potential outcome. And then if I’m like feeling iffy about like, I don’t know how to get to that potential outcome or what that potential outcome might mean. I just like pull a couple of cards, but like, I’m also not saying that whatever’s in the card is for sure going to happen. It’s just like, Hey, Hey, if you do all the right things, this is where we can get to kind of thing. Or this is the goal in mind. You know, I was reading through a couple of articles and you know, one of the articles from Newton, Abbey times in England, um, talk about how millennials in general may be drawn more to Terrell. And um, they say that this is because it’s very visual practice, which I’m like, eh, cause they say much like popular apps, like Instagram and Tik TOK and social media. But,
Speaker 5 00:38:08 Um, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:38:10 I don’t know about that. Um, but you can do it alone and you’re free of judgment and it’s more like a diagnostic tool, like an x-ray or something that just reflects back on what year what’s actually going on in your subconscious or in your present circumstances, just in a slightly different way, as opposed to like, you know, going to church and confession hearing about how terrible you are. Um, because
Speaker 1 00:38:32 How terrible.
Speaker 0 00:38:36 Oh my God, I love it. Um, so the last thing I’m going to talk about is this awesome girl. Uh, I say girl, she’s a woman cause she’s our age. Um, so her name is Jessica DOR. She has a master’s degree in social work and she is a self-described social worker who uses taro to talk about mental health, which like just love it. Um, so on her Instagram slash Twitter, she posts a daily taro card and pairs that with like mental health advice. Um, she says it’s therapeutic, but it doesn’t claim that it’s therapy just wants to be able to help and offer people something that’s more accessible than actual and cost-effective than actual therapy. And she’s going into saying I’m much more interested in using the cards, tools to have a conversation with people to open up new perspectives and use the cards to ask questions, which like yes, so much. Yeah. And a lot of it is like she asks questions like, okay, what comes up for you when you see this image? Or when you hear these ideas, which is hilarious because like, that’s exactly what I do when I do tarot cards with people. I’m like, well, what do you think of when you look at this? Well, you know,
Speaker 4 00:39:48 When you were talking about your, uh, your set up there, I was thinking or how you like pull a card a day or something because of how long it takes to do a spread. You know, when I was doing my like Oracle cards, like literally I would just shuffle it and shuffle it and shuffle it and then I would stop and then I’d pull a card and I would always think like, Oh, the randomness of it is what makes it special because it’s going to be like a random card and I’m just going to keep shuffling. And then whatever I pull, you know, will be relevant to me. But the thing about those cards is like, honestly, I’m pretty sure any, one of them been super relevant if I really looked at it. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:40:29 Like my next quote is from her. She says the cards themselves, depending on what deck you use have all of these symbols and architects in them, there are things that show up in Disney movies, tales, fairy tales. And there’s this deep resonance for people. I E what you just said. So like, you kind of said, it’s, there’s so many layered symbols and familiar characters and all this, all these things that we’ve grown up, seeing that I think it’s going to be difficult for somebody to not find meaning in what they pull or yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so a lot of what she’s also said, a lot of what shows up in the card, she just brings something up for you. You might not know what the card means, but it’s almost like the Rorschach inkblot test, which I mentioned earlier, what are you seeing here?
Speaker 0 00:41:19 What is this bringing up for you? It’s another way to get people to come out of their rigid narrative. And people enjoy that along with the mystical magical element of it, which is, it does make it a little bit more fun, even if really it’s just a deck of cards, but we don’t necessarily use it in that way. She says it’s more compelling for people. And it’s interesting. And they feel like they’re doing something special. And so the last thing I want to mention and like, honestly, that’s really what it is for me is like, I have a really difficult time processing my own emotions and thoughts. Sometimes I feel like they’re all just like buzzing around. They’re like BS and it’s hard to nail anything down into a complete, like, this is why I feel like this. And for me, I feel like the taro helps me get to that subconscious. That’s too difficult for me to do consciously. It’s hard to get to my subconscious consciously, but yeah. You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 00:42:13 Well, it’s like, it’s setting that intention when you, when you’re taking a moment and you’re like, I’m going to set. I’m like, exactly. It’s like, you’re setting your intention. You’re going to have this moment. And you’re going to, uh, you’re looking for something really specifically.
Speaker 0 00:42:31 I mean, you’re saying it right now, but it’s, you’re really taking a moment of mindfulness. Exactly. That’s huge right now, people talk about all the time as being a way to help manage your stress and your emotions and your daily life and all that stuff. And that’s literally what this is. It’s taking a mindful moment for introspection. So this, this woman, Jessica tour, like also, you should check out her Instagram and Twitter links. And I liked, I spent a while, like just scrolling through, cause I really liked everything she had to say. Um, but in then one of the articles about her, they asked, what do you say to skeptics who associate this with fortune telling? And Jessica says, I totally understand that we have associations with things and that’s how our brains work, but it’s good to consider that things might not be exactly what you associate them with in there are other ways of understanding things. Tarot cards are pieces of paper with images on them, to some people, to others, they have deeply spiritual meanings. And to some, they are pieces of paper with images on them that you can use to better understand yourself. My, my work is geared toward the latter, which like, I mean, I’m not like a social worker, Instagram famous or anything, but like saying, that’s why I use them. And that’s why I like,
Speaker 4 00:43:45 Oh, it’s like social worker and Instagram famous or at the same level. You’re like, I’m not these things, but I know
Speaker 0 00:43:52 Either of those things, but yeah, that’s, that’s why I use it. And that’s why I love them aside from just appreciating the artwork aspects because you know, it’s a very visual thing and people really it’s very aesthetically pleasing. It is. It’s so nice to just like sit and look through them. And like, I don’t know. It reminds me of, so when I went to art school, you know, they’d be like, okay, this is what your assignment is. You know, gotta do a pen and ink drawing. You got to do an underwater creature and you have to do like a horizontal composition or, you know, whatever, or break compositional, like the composition boundary or something like that. And like it was so to me and always has been to see where other people’s minds go and with the same instructions, we can all get such different results.
Speaker 0 00:44:42 And that’s how I feel. Yeah. And that’s how I feel when I look at like all the different taro decks. Like there’s so many, like I had a tattoo tarot deck. I have my all funds Milka deck, which I love, which is an art deco style. You know, I have these ultra modern decks that like really, I think, you know, work to, uh, Lauren, the millennial crowd, but it’s still very interesting and the different way, Oh, I have a sent them Workday deck, which is, and it’s so interesting seeing all the different ways that people use this framework to create all this different art and all these different interpretations. It’s just like, it’s amazing. I love them so much. Um, so yeah, that’s my, that’s my story. Not story about, um, tarot cards.
Speaker 1 00:45:29 That’s lovely. And yes, I, I really, uh, I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 0 00:45:33 It’s definitely like a whole, it’s definitely one thing that I’m like passionate about. Although I have yet to get a taro card tattoo. So, you know, there’s that,
Speaker 1 00:45:46 Um, I’m sure it’ll happen eventually. They’re very on-trend uh, once you tell me which taro card you’re going to get tattooed, then I’m going to get it tattooed like the day before you. Cause that’s my style. Like the Robin tattoo. Yeah. I told someone I work today that, that, uh, I was God, how did it come up? I don’t know how it came up. But at some point I was like, I, I S I did bring that up of like how all the gotten at least two tattoos that were your idea first. And I was like, Oh, thank you.
Speaker 0 00:46:20 There’s just the Robin. And then the Clover.
Speaker 1 00:46:24 Yeah. I mean, you branded me as a young cause we youngster poked a hole in my nose. I stuck a sticker behind my ear.
Speaker 0 00:46:33 We did that at the mall. Didn’t we bow to my mom.
Speaker 1 00:46:36 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:46:39 I was such a great influence on you.
Speaker 1 00:46:42 You really were. People to this day are like, Oh, you’re Irish. Aren’t ya? And I’m like, what, what? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:46:50 Yeah. It happens to me all the time. Like, Oh, you have a Clover tattoo. And I’m like, what? Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 00:46:56 I’m like, Oh shit. Yeah. See, but that’s what,
Speaker 0 00:46:59 Yeah. That’s why it’s there. Like we forget about it. Oh my God. He scared the shit out of me. Did you hear that?
Speaker 1 00:47:09 I can hear it, but I’ve been watching them jump around in the background for a minute. Oops. Oh God. My chair was like,
Speaker 0 00:47:16 Um, so, uh, I live in a new teas. Yeah. I live in a new house now and you know, I’m trying to get used to the new house, strange noises. And I put my cat tree behind me in the living room and uh, he just jumped off it, but he didn’t jump off like right by his fucking cat tree. He jumped off and landed about six inches behind me. Oh my. So it sounded like somebody was stepping on the ground right behind me and I almost died. You almost watched me die. That was what was going to happen. I had okay. It was just my fluffy kid and it’s fine anyways. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:47:58 You didn’t, you didn’t dive, but I’m very glad about that. Like dodged a kitten for sure.
Speaker 0 00:48:06 So, um, do you have a story for me? Well, I hit wheels. I haven’t even annoyed you and all today about what you’re talking about. So like please acknowledge you already know.
Speaker 1 00:48:21 Okay. So today I am talking about, um, something I need a better way to like introduce my topics, my top news. So today I’m going to tell you the story of Claire Sylvia, Claire, right? Who is this? She is the first woman in new England, uh, who got a heart combined heart and lung transplant. Ooh, interesting. Yeah. So that’s a lot like what, what do you mean
Speaker 0 00:48:58 She had her heart and lungs transplanted at the same time. Yes. That’s intense.
Speaker 1 00:49:04 Yes. Yeah. In the eighties. Oh, um, yeah. I love it. You’re like Wolf the eighties.
Speaker 0 00:49:14 I mean, no, I don’t know.
Speaker 1 00:49:17 So I bet you’re wondering. Hi. Did you wonder about this?
Speaker 0 00:49:22 Actually, I am wondering that.
Speaker 1 00:49:24 Yeah. Okay. So mom has a bunch of books on her bookshelf of books. She has a ton. This Justin, we like books. Yeah. So I will say that I almost entirely sourced this from books, which I’m very proud of. Proud of you. That’s impressive. So easy to use the internet. Also, there really wasn’t much about her on the internet. Really. I also used a lifetime movie because her story, uh, which is her memoir, it’s called a change of heart actually.
Speaker 0 00:50:01 Oh my God. That’s such a good title. I love it a lot.
Speaker 1 00:50:04 Isn’t it though. Yeah. Um, yeah, so it was actually, uh, a lifetime movie called a, the heart of heart of a stranger is what it’s called. Oh. And also guess who’s in it. Who? Maggie Lawson. Really? Yeah. Jules, Jules from psych is in this movie. She’s, she’s an interesting character. She plays Claire’s daughter, but of course it’s different names and it’s like, based on her stories. So it’s a little different, but the same, like through line is there. Um, I actually, I have had, okay, so I’m going a little bit round Robin right now, but anyways, um, so I found out about this book because I can hear him Hering I was wondering if he could or not. Oh, little kitty purs. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:50:58 Look a little face. He’s just sitting here and letting me play with his toe beans
Speaker 1 00:51:04 Nail. He’s got cute, baby.
Speaker 0 00:51:06 He’s just want snowballs look saying hi,
Speaker 1 00:51:09 I see him. He’s very high. Um, so yeah, so one day before I rearranged my room, I like had a moment where I’m like, I need to learn things. And I went downstairs and just took all the books I wanted to read off of mom’s shelf and was like, you’ll get these back eventually. Also, you know, where they are and brought them all upstairs to the giant pile. And one of them was the art of healing, which I’m suspicious. I got for her for like a birthday or a holiday or something.
Speaker 0 00:51:41 Yeah. I would, I would, uh, lean towards agreeing with you on that one.
Speaker 1 00:51:47 Yeah. So I started reading that and that is by Dr. Bernie Siegel and he’s a general and pediatric surgeon.
Speaker 0 00:51:56 I thought you were going to say Bernie Sanders because that’s just where my brain
Speaker 1 00:52:00 No, another Bernie. Um, yeah. So Dr. Siegel, who, uh, was a general and pediatric surgeon until 1989. And since his retirement, he has dedicated himself to empowering patients in their own healing process and humanizing the approach of patients in the medical field. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:52:18 By searches. So the Bernie Sanders of surgeons.
Speaker 1 00:52:21 Yes. Yeah. No. And like the first couple of pages, he’s like, y’all, did she know that surgeons are like mad, disconnected from these people? And I was like, why was suspicious? Cause I watch a lot of Grey’s anatomy and he’s like, yeah. Uh, the, the surgeons on Grey’s anatomy, like that’s his, that’s like the best you could possibly. Well, I mean, anyways, so now I’m going grays anatomy tunnel.
Speaker 0 00:52:42 You talked about surgeons and being disconnected. My brain went to scrubs.
Speaker 1 00:52:48 Yes. Where it’s
Speaker 0 00:52:50 Very much like a sports thing. Like, Oh, I did this and this amount of time, not like the plan, it was just about the, the act of the surgeon surgery.
Speaker 1 00:52:59 Yeah. No, he makes a point where he says, uh, uh, you know, it bothered him that surgeons like would refer to patients as their, uh, ailment or their disease or they were what they were, you know, like, Oh, I got you gallbladder, GLA, I don’t know something ectomy, you know, hysterectomy down on four floor, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? Like they just refer to it as the thing instead of the person. Um, and he basically saw that as, uh, that it was harming
Speaker 3 00:53:26 Patients, you know, more than helping them because they noticed like this distance doesn’t help them heal. And no one’s there it’s that intermediate point to really help encourage what
Speaker 6 00:53:37 You’re saying. Dehumanizing people doesn’t help them. I know. Right. It’s shocking. Sorry. I just couldn’t help myself there. Like come on.
Speaker 3 00:53:48 I know. I know. Um, so yeah, so his book is really interesting. Of course, in the beginning of his book, he references like five other books. So that just sent me right off the edge. Yeah. I like it. So yes, all the books. And that’s how I found out about a change of heart by clear Sylvia, because he mentioned her in the, in like the first couple of pages. I swear. I just went crazy with the first. I literally have not gotten very far into that book. I got like a chapter. Right. And I’m like, Oh, I’ve got to look up a bunch of other things.
Speaker 6 00:54:21 No, I thought you were actually, when you said you were reading a bunch of books, I thought you were going to be talking about something else.
Speaker 3 00:54:27 Oh, interesting.
Speaker 6 00:54:30 It’ll come up another time.
Speaker 3 00:54:32 Heard that. All right.
Speaker 6 00:54:35 So now we’re going
Speaker 3 00:54:37 To talk about Claire Sylvia. Okay. So I’m gonna give you a little bit of background about her as a person, um, before we get into her story. Um, okay. So this is just a small quote. There’s going to be lots of quotes.
Speaker 6 00:54:53 So I love quotes. I quoted the one during my story.
Speaker 3 00:54:57 Okay. This is the beginning, the front page. You open the cover and this is what you see. Okay. All my life I’ve been told that despite the protests of poets and the murmuring of mystics, the human heart is just a pump and incredibly important pump, but only a pump. I’m a notness mandatory machine. According to this view, which is the accepted one in contemporary Western medicine, the heart contains no feelings and carries no wisdom, no knowledge and no memories.
Speaker 6 00:55:27 I feel like this is going to be so good. I’m very excited continue.
Speaker 3 00:55:33 And if one person’s heart has previously resided in another person’s body, the fact that fact has no particular meaning or implication. Interesting. She says, I used to believe these things, but today I know differently
Speaker 6 00:55:48 Done, done, done. Okay. That’s the star sound? Oh my goodness. Okay. So I’m very excited and invested right now.
Speaker 3 00:56:04 So let’s talk about Claire. Um, and I’m just going to tell you a little bit about her upbringing, Claire, Claire bear, L Clary, the Berry, um, Lord helped me. Okay. As a young child, Claire, her mother and her sister all lived with her mother’s parents in the Bronx. Um, her father
Speaker 4 00:56:24 Was a physician who went overseas with the army during world war II. Um, and in 1913, her grandparents escaped SARS Russia with Claire’s mother and came to New York.
Speaker 6 00:56:34 Ooh, czarist Russia.
Speaker 4 00:56:37 Yes. In 1913. Um, and she says that it was a warm and traditional Jewish household, rich in food and good humor where we celebrated the Sabbath with Friday night dinners at a table, crowded with my relatives and my grandparents home dreams were a natural and reoccurring topic of discussion. This was common. I know this was common among Russian Jewish immigrants. If you had a dream during the night, you talked about it in the morning.
Speaker 6 00:57:08 Oh, so common amongst Puerto. Rican’s true.
Speaker 4 00:57:14 Um, she also says there’s an adage in the tem mode, Tom mood, um, that an, that an uninterpretable dream is like an unopened letter in our family. You might say, we always read our mail.
Speaker 6 00:57:29 Ooh. I like that quote, right. Goodbye.
Speaker 4 00:57:33 So it, it is, um, I just, I just like how she put that they sprayed our mail every morning. Um,
Speaker 6 00:57:40 Whereas I, in real life rarely open my mail because I’m a great adult.
Speaker 4 00:57:47 LOL. I always look up everyone else’s dreams mine. I wake up and then I like, I, it fades away into the ether and I’m like, all right,
Speaker 6 00:57:55 I’m in my literal male.
Speaker 4 00:57:57 Oh yeah. Um, so in 1942, when Claire was three years old, she was diagnosed with a congenital heart murmur as a child. Yeah. As a child, she would often come down with a cold or a sore throat that would develop into bronchitis or the flu. She suffered from low blood sugar. And wasn’t really allowed to participate in any sort of figurative activities or sports at school. She says during the mostly unhappy childhood dance was my salvation by rescuer my antidote to depression. So at the age of eight, she started dancing and she danced all through high school and college and actually went on to became a professional dancer. Um, despite, you know, her ailments and her, she always, she described herself as like a rebellious kid that she’s like, okay, sure. You know, I’m not going to do it, but I am.
Speaker 6 00:58:52 It’s like, who can blame her at that point? I
Speaker 4 00:58:55 Right. It’s like, you might as well work with what you got. Yeah. Um, so in high school she took classes at Julliard. She won a scholarship for a summer program at the Connecticut college for women and actually took a class with Martha Graham.
Speaker 6 00:59:09 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:59:12 This was in the forties. Oh, wow. Okay. Right now, probably fifties. It has to be in the fifties. I don’t know. I don’t know the timeline, her high school, but after high school, she went to Adelphi college, which is now Adelphi university on long Island, which was one of the few schools in the fifties that offered a dance major. So there’s the timeline for you? She auditioned for West side story. Yeah. She audition for like the actual Jerome Robbins and made it to the final four of the audition. Um, and she told herself, like, after she got cut from the audition, she was like, you know what, there’s going to be some, this was her first audition for first open-ended like that. She went on. Yes. And, um, she was, she told herself, she was like, you know, it’s okay. This is your first one. And you did really good. You’re going to go on so many more.
Speaker 6 01:00:02 No, she didn’t. Did she
Speaker 4 01:00:05 In the spring of her senior year, she was diagnosed with a kidney disease called glue. Mer
Speaker 6 01:00:15 Woo. Mariah piss. No,
Speaker 4 01:00:18 It’s, glummer Rue LA nephritis, glomerulonephritis.
Speaker 6 01:00:23 Um, I think I’m going to name my son that,
Speaker 4 01:00:28 Um, but it’s not funny actually. No. Um,
Speaker 6 01:00:32 Should we inject a little humor? And I know you’re like, ha, but it’s not funny bitch. I’m like, ha ha. But yes. Um, but now, so
Speaker 4 01:00:48 When she was diagnosed with a kidney disease, uh, she was actually, uh, admitted to the hospital for a month. Um, when she was finally healthy enough to be released, her doctor told her that she could never dance again and that she would probably never be able to have children. Oh my God. Be very dangerous. How old was she? This was her senior year of college. So she was like, just getting ready to like hit the world with her amazing dance skills. And despite, you know, her childhood and having a heart murmur and having all of these conditions and like, she was constantly sick as a child. You know what I mean? It’s like, and she’s finally found something that she can do and that she’s really good at it. And she’s worked so hard for, and then she’s basically told Nope, can’t do it. Um, so when she was healthy enough to be released, Oh, I already told you again.
Speaker 4 01:01:41 Okay. So, um, people often die from this condition and despite her parents insisting that she moved home, she remained living on her own in Manhattan, in the upper West side. And she was like, as hard as you think it would have been for me to stop dancing. That’s how hard it was for me to stop dancing. And she was like, but I did do it. And she like quit cold Turkey. She stopped, you know, kind of going around her dance friends, like, I mean, not like interacting with them, but she wouldn’t like tease herself with the opportunity. She kind of had to like cut herself off from it, a little, doing something
Speaker 6 01:02:20 You love cold Turkey like that.
Speaker 4 01:02:23 It’s tough. Um, I don’t even know, honestly, but about four years later she began working at hairdo magazine. Cause she had studied English in college and it was like a publishing job, quote unquote. And she’s like, yeah, I don’t know.
Speaker 6 01:02:41 Um, do you magazine? I write.
Speaker 4 01:02:45 Um, but while she was working at hairdo magazine, she became friends with a coworker named Marine. She told Marine all about her previous life as a dancer and Marine began to encourage her to work out and to try dancing again. Um, one day Marine came in and you know, they’re sitting at work and Marine starts like pushing a copy of variety, uh, which is a magazine for all those young ENS out there.
Speaker 6 01:03:14 It was like, duh. And then I realized why you’re saying it. And I got sad anyways. I hope they, I hope they have an Instagram for them
Speaker 4 01:03:20 Sick anyways. So she’s like pushing a copy of variety towards Claire. And it had like an ad for an audition for a new modern dance company. And um, and it’s really funny because she’s like, you know how she describes it? She’s like, yeah. Marina was like, yeah, you should do it. Just go and do it. And Claire’s like, well, I can’t do it that day. Um, I can’t, I can, I could do it the next day. And she’s like, so call them and ask them. And she like says in her book, she’s like the audacity to call up someone and say, hi, I want to audition. Do you want to see me a separate day? She was like, uh, but I did it. And she called them and they, they saw her on another day and she was like, I was very surprised that
Speaker 6 01:04:02 Worked go Marine. Yeah,
Speaker 4 01:04:05 No, she just called him up. And um, so she additions and two weeks after hearing nothing. Cause they were like, we’re going to call you. We’ll be in touch. Um, she did get a call and made the cut and promptly quit her job at hairdo magazine to go to join the dance company. Yay. Yes. A little light for Claire. So before the company, his training program started, she went to speak with her kidney doctor about, you know, the risks involved and after, uh, some scans and tests, her doctor told her that her kidneys were healed.
Speaker 6 01:04:40 Okay now? Oh no. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4 01:04:44 Yeah. But like this is insane. Um, th this is she, you know, she was diagnosed with the disease that people die from. You know, I, I wouldn’t say that it was like terminal. I, I’m not sure what her treatment was. She doesn’t really go into that, but that’s just crazy. Uh, she says, he showed me the medical records of another patient, a young boy who had come to the hospital with Glo Maru, nephritis around the same time I had and said, look at this, your numbers are identical. You both had same prognosis, but today you’re dancing and this poor kid is dying. And I can’t explain why. So basically
Speaker 0 01:05:26 Not to like, be that person. The part of me is wondering if her physical activity helps with that.
Speaker 4 01:05:33 Yeah. But she was not like she got in shape for the audition. Um, I remember, like she said, Oh, I feel, I felt really out of shape and she’d been smoking, which I’m like, was that just a thing in the eighties? Or no one thought that that coincided with health.
Speaker 0 01:05:51 I feel like that was the thing in the eighties where nobody really thought about it.
Speaker 4 01:05:55 Yeah. She’s like she was smoking. She said she wasn’t working out that she was actually like, not, you know, cause she was kind of, you know, I wouldn’t say that she was depressed, but sort of in a more of depressive state of like, I don’t really know what to do with myself because I can’t dance and I’m not doing what I want to do. Um, so
Speaker 0 01:06:15 When people tell you, Hey, you had this dream for your life and you can’t do it or you’ll die. Like that’s just, that’s fucking bananas. Also. I would never want to do anything more than do that. Cause I’m a weirdo, but anyways, yeah. Or a weirdo, I don’t think maybe that was what you were going to jump on.
Speaker 4 01:06:37 That’s cause you know me so well. Um, but yeah, I mean they even said when, like she came on AF like to the training program, after she saw her doctor, they were like, wow, that’s amazing that you got so in shape and you quit smoking all for like so quickly. And she was like, I made it. It’s not super surprising. All I needed was a reason. Yeah. It’s crazy how that works. Yeah. She’s like once I had the motivation to do it, it was very easy. Um, which good for you girl. That is some motivation right there. Uh, okay. So basically, yeah. Thanks to Marine variety magazine and modern dads. And like this medical miracle, Claire was able to dance again. And she actually says, um, Maureen was one of the several people who seem to have been sent to me over the years as if by some higher power to move my life along and an important new direction, which I right.
Speaker 4 01:07:33 I was like, cause you know, I feel like we, it is common to have that as an experience where someone just kind of shows up and helps you and then there, and then that’s it, you know? Um, but whatever, Oh, she also defied her kidney doctor’s prediction for her and the night, uh, because she in 1972, after a quote, beautiful and healthy pregnancy had a daughter named Amara beautiful name too. So fast forward to the spring of 1985. So now she’s 45 years old. Um, she’s finishing up her first year as a drama teacher at Brooklyn high school near Boston. So at this point, you know, she’s,
Speaker 3 01:08:16 She’s middle-aged and she, uh, is noticing, you know, some that she gets very tired doing small things, uh, going up a flight of stairs. She’s just getting very exhausted, but she excused a lot of it of like, Oh, I’m just middle-aged
Speaker 0 01:08:33 I was going to say, just getting old. Yeah, yeah. Understandable.
Speaker 3 01:08:39 Right. So one Sunday morning and she had visited her doctor and T basically told her, Oh, you have this condition, but it’s treatable. And that’s kind of like, I feel like if I was in my forties in the eighties and someone was like, Oh, Hey, this is why you’re tired. Here’s some medicine for it. See you next time. I wouldn’t really think about it. You know what I mean? Yeah. So one Sunday morning, um, in 1985, Claire’s eating breakfast and flipping through parade magazine, as you did. And she noticed a woman about her age pictured with a story about how four years earlier in 1981, she had been the first person to survive a combined heart lung transplant. So she continued reading the story to find out that this woman, Mary GoldKey suffered from a very serious disease called primary pulmonary hypertension, a pod reading this Claire says I nearly fell off my chair.
Speaker 3 01:09:44 18 months earlier. I had been given the very same diagnosis by my own doctor who had definitely not use the phrase very serious disease. Yikes is right. He’s had even told her the good news is that you won’t be needing surgery. We can control this problem through medication, which okay. And she even says, she’s like, I don’t know why I didn’t ask any questions because I immediately upon reading that. And I think she like knew it as she was writing it. She was like, I know this sounds bad. It sounds like he’s a bad guy. And she’s like, honestly, I went back and forth as to who really had responsibility in that situation. And she was like, ultimately I didn’t ask any questions. And I took it at face value and I really didn’t put any work in to understanding what my situation was,
Speaker 0 01:10:36 But it was also the eighties. And there wasn’t like Google for you to look up like how serious your fucking illness is. And your doctor was the professional when you listened to your doctor, no matter what. And that was it like,
Speaker 3 01:10:50 Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. So, um, she read on about Mary’s story and parade and she learned that PPH primary pulmonary hypertension was a much more serious or it was much more than just a serious condition. It was terminal. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:11:09 Well my dad, he didn’t even tell her that it was terminal. No, she immediately
Speaker 4 01:11:14 Went to her doctor upon reading this and he explained that the word primary meant that this disease had no known cause
Speaker 7 01:11:23 Or cure. So
Speaker 4 01:11:25 I didn’t know that. So if I ever go to a doctor and they’re like, Oh, you have primary pre-menstrual Centrum. I’m going to be like, I know that that’s ridiculous example by the way. But I just didn’t have anything else on the top of my brain
Speaker 0 01:11:40 Also, how come he didn’t fucking tell her that it was terminal.
Speaker 4 01:11:46 She, she kind of goes on about that and about how it kind of just was an interesting bow. I mean, I get that, I get that. But it’s like also, it’s like he caught it early in her. She wasn’t, anyways, it’s problematic. It’s problematic. I’m not going to fucking deny that shit. But like she goes back and forth on it. Um, so it definitely adds like an interesting level to whether their relationship. Um, so yeah, so at the time, and also here’s another thing at the time that PBH was so rare that most doctors actually knew nothing about it. So the fact that she was diagnosed when she was, is pretty miraculous, even at that, um, one out of 1 million people with a PPA or no out of 1 million people, PPH will affect one person. Ooh. So it is, yeah, it is incredibly rare and it’s not only rare, but it’s also the eighties and you’re right.
Speaker 4 01:12:46 There is no Google, you know, the communication, uh, between doctors. I’m not sure how that works, but it’s like the research and all of this. This is a very new, uh, situation. And Mary GoldKey is like the first person who had a successful heart lung transplant at liver. And two also had the same condition. So this is like very right on the cusp of all of this happening. And also it applies to Claire too. I mean, I can only imagine what that must feel like to be literally sitting in your kitchen, drinking your coffee in the morning and being like, are what, you know, you know, we we’ll have it
Speaker 0 01:13:23 Faint. I know she said she was, she almost fell out of her chair, but I’m like, yeah, surprise. She didn’t faint or have a panic attack. Or like, I’m trying to think of all the things that I would do.
Speaker 4 01:13:35 So she actually, I was going to bring this up later. So I might have a point where I realized this at some point, but, um, in the seventies she had a problem with high blood pressure. So it was probably after having her daughter. So it might’ve had something to do with her pregnancy. Um, and she actually went to go see this doctor. I want to say his name is Eric Benson, but we’ll verify that in a second. Um, I fucking I’ll scroll, pardon me? Or Benson. Um, so she, yes, so she, um, sought the help of him. And he had been written up in the New York times for his innovative work using meditation and relaxation techniques to treat physical disorders. So she practiced meditation regularly, um, which like good for you girl in the eighties, practicing meditation for literal too. She was, Oh, Oh, here’s another thing. She was actually one of the many patients who lowered their blood pressure through meditation alone as part of a research project that became the basis of Dr. Benson’s book, the relaxation response
Speaker 5 01:14:37 Too mom would like that shit. Very,
Speaker 4 01:14:41 Very interesting. Okay. Um,
Speaker 8 01:14:45 So after she
Speaker 4 01:14:47 Found out basically that she was a lucky mother F and duck to be, even be diagnosed at the point that she was let alone finding out by chance in a magazine that it was terminal and all this other information about it,
Speaker 5 01:15:03 How many other people had a lives decided by magazines in the eighties? I mean,
Speaker 4 01:15:08 Yes. It’s like a, it’s a cultural, you know, difference in times, um, versus the eighties versus now, because I don’t know, cause it’s just like she found that audition variety and then all magically, her kidneys are healed and now she’s reading parade and it’s like the act the opposite. It’s just very, it’s very interesting. Um, so at this point, Claire really takes matters into her own hands to learn as much as she could about the disease. Like despite her fears of what she might find out, which I can only imagine would be fucking terrifying, um, go to a library. Oh, she called the national Institute of health in Bethesda and asked for everything they had on PPA and bought a copy of Mary goalkeeper book, which is called I’ll take tomorrow for anyone who wants to look that up. She actually looked to Mary GoldKey as a pioneer, as a role model, as someone to look to because she survived this whole ordeal.
Speaker 4 01:16:11 And um, I mean, PPH basically, it’s like, you are suffocating in your own body and you can’t like move or do anything on your own because like you’re basically suffocating. Like you can’t breathe. Um, so it’s very debilitating and she actually even reached out to Mary goalkeeper at one point, looked her number up in the phone book, reached out to her and called her and Mary picked up and she didn’t even know what to say. And she was just like, Oh my gosh. And then she just cried to her and was like, I have this condition. And Mary was like super sweet to her and was very caring and was just like, you’ve got this, like you need to keep going. Um, so a lot of Mary’s like encouragement and what she says in her book, like kept Claire going to the point where she was able to get a trailer.
Speaker 5 01:17:02 Okay. So w were they like the same age or was married older? They were, they were about the same age.
Speaker 4 01:17:10 Um, so for everything that she read and understood, uh, she said that PBH is often, like I said, incredibly difficult to diagnose. So she was thankful that she at least had an early diagnosis. Um, she also found out that the progression of PPH is different for each person. However, almost everyone with PPH had one thing with common within three to five years, they were dead.
Speaker 6 01:17:34 Oh my God. Yeah.
Speaker 4 01:17:37 Yeah. So now we’re in the summer of 1985. Okay. Claire is coming to terms with her diagnosis and how she would cope moving forward into the future. She was afraid that at this rate should be too weak to return to school. Um, and she was already having trouble with extreme exhaustion before the year was up. And she was like hiding it from her coworkers. And from her students, she’d be like, Oh, I forgot my notes. You go catch up. And she’d be like, standing there, like heaving over a desk because
Speaker 6 01:18:06 She was out of breath.
Speaker 4 01:18:09 So a friend’s husband to what, like a friend of hers who,
Speaker 6 01:18:13 Uh,
Speaker 4 01:18:15 One of her friends, husbands who was a mortician, he is a physician named Mort. You understand the trouble I was having. So he suggested a medication. So she like confided to her friend. Uh, this is what I’m going through. This is the situation. And her husband said, uh, have you heard about this medication called Procardia? Um, which she was able to get from her doctor? Uh, he said that it does really well with the symptoms of PPH, but it’s not a long-term solution. So she got her doctor to prescribe it to her. Um, she says half an hour after taking the first pill, her symptoms basically vanished. She was astounded. She could return it. She was able to return back to school with the Maura. Um, and at this point, Mara was Sarah as a student, which is like a very sweet, like, she didn’t even think she could have a daughter.
Speaker 4 01:19:13 You know what I mean? And like that is her determination. Like, that’s her motivation. She was like, no, I want to, I live to see her graduate. Like that’s, that’s my goal. That’s my goal. Oh man, by the end of 1987, her time on Procardia was pretty much out, uh, was having no, um, change in her symptoms. Like it just, you know, her body had kind of acclimated to it and now she was back to where she was. Um, so once again, her health was in rapid decline. Um, and she, this is another quote throughout these months. I remembered Mary goalkeepers, words of encouragement. Keep going breath by breath moment by moment. No matter how hard it gets.
Speaker 6 01:19:55 Yeah.
Speaker 4 01:19:57 So now in April of 1988, the Yale new Haven hospital in Connecticut was about to become the fourth medical center in the country. And the first in new to perform
Speaker 3 01:20:08 Heart lung transplants, um, the program was being built around Dr. John Baldwin, who had previously been at Stanford and was a rising star in the world of transplant surgery.
Speaker 6 01:20:21
Speaker 3 01:20:25 Like, I’m the only rising star here, ladies.
Speaker 6 01:20:30 No
Speaker 3 01:20:31 Yet. Not yet. Take a walk yet. Seared me. I thought he was
Speaker 5 01:20:35 Going to spill my wine.
Speaker 6 01:20:38 No, not the line.
Speaker 5 01:20:40 Look, he snuggled up in the blanket with me. Do you hear him? I see easily
Speaker 3 01:20:47 Look so grumpy and manly, like a stodgy cam,
Speaker 5 01:20:50 But he’s so happy and loving. No, that’s everybody. I feel like he’s so much happier there with you actually. He’s been very happy.
Speaker 6 01:21:01 It’s a kid you face. Okay. Bye. Bye.
Speaker 5 01:21:05 Bye-bye. I love cats. Give him like five seconds of affection. You said? Oh yeah. That’s why I love chill. Okay. So sorry. He was a rising star before yachts. He tried to rise even higher.
Speaker 3 01:21:20 Thank you. And yes, he was trying to rise heart.
Speaker 6 01:21:25 Um, anyways, um, so
Speaker 3 01:21:32 Claire asked her doctor to reach out to Dr. Baldwin with about her eligibility in the program, but by may. Okay. So this is an April that this is happening and she’s on top of it, by the way, she’s also dying. Like she also like can’t even take a shower by herself and she is literally like determined to take care of her shit, which is just, you go go Claire, like, geez. Um, so yeah. So by may, she had come to find out that her doctor never reached out and also hap yeah, he also left the country for three weeks. So she was just like hung out to dry. She had to talk to her doctor, secretary, and she was like, Oh yeah, by the way, he won’t be back till like June. And she was like, um, excuse me. Okay. So Barbara Babs had been taking care of that. Yes, friend. No.
Speaker 5 01:22:24 Arby’s a nickname for Barbara.
Speaker 3 01:22:28 Good. Old Babs has been taken care of Claire for the past couple of years. And they’re really good friends. And she’s looking at first she’s there for her. Okay. So Claire told Barbara that this just happened and she’s like, yeah, I got a call. These people. And Barbara was like, give me the fucking phone.
Speaker 5 01:22:46 Okay. Barbie? Yeah. Got Bob Barfield.
Speaker 6 01:22:52 Oh yeah. Oh man.
Speaker 3 01:22:59 Okay. So she and, okay. So Barbara got through to the, in charge of the program at the time, the coordinator of the program, Dale. Eddie. Yes. Got through to her right away. Wait,
Speaker 6 01:23:14 Could you say her last name was Yeti? Eddie. Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 01:23:19 I would love it. Her, if her last name was Yeti, that’d be like, yes. Um,
Speaker 6 01:23:23 So Barbie saved the day because women get shit done. Yeah,
Speaker 3 01:23:27 Exactly, exactly. And so Gail like assessed Claire situation and asked her to come in for an evaluation in two weeks. And Claire literally like the, after that call, she’s like the way that she describes it, she’s like, okay, I can live through two weeks. I can live for two more weeks to like, yeah. But you got to think about how you’re in this situation in your body. Literally can’t L it is heavy. It is heavy for sure. Is
Speaker 6 01:23:53 She still alive? Is Claire still alive?
Speaker 3 01:23:56 So she died in 2009. Yeah.
Speaker 6 01:23:59 But I was going to say, if she’s still alive, I would have loved to have met her.
Speaker 3 01:24:03 She was on Dr. Phil and on Oprah. So there is like footage of her that you could watch. So even though at this stage, Claire felt like she might be kidding herself. Gail Eddie’s call really did give her hope. And that night Claire had two auspicious dreams. So these are her two dreams. And the first one, a sharp, shiny knife floated in front of me, surrounded by a white glow. As I watched an amazement, the knife cut the neck of a baby near his Adam’s Apple. But I knew the baby wasn’t hurt because there was no crying and no blood in the second tree
Speaker 6 01:24:43 Was just dead. Sorry. Hi. I’m a well adjusted grown-up thanks for you
Speaker 3 01:24:51 Coming my face. That’s the part of like FaceTime where I’m just like, yeah, I know. It sounds really fucking weird.
Speaker 6 01:25:00 Oh, good. I’m glad you agreed because I thought you were judging me anyways. No, I was
Speaker 3 01:25:04 Judging you. I was like, yeah, I don’t know. This is, this is, this was horrifying. And also her, like, I love that she puts her dreams in here because they’re really feel like that rounds it out very well in the, as far as yeah. Yes. Thank you. For those words. That was much better than what I said. Um, so in the second dream, the transplant was already over. It had gone smoothly with no pain and right after the operation, I was walking around. But the doctors hadn’t told me that I would need to drink four glasses of milk each day. I learned this by chance talking to somebody else,
Speaker 6 01:25:41 Like she learned that she was dying by chance. Sorry. I’m never going to get over that.
Speaker 3 01:25:47 No, you’re right. By chance, reading a magazine, like talking to Mary goalkeeper in her mind’s eye, you’re not wrong. Um, she says, it seemed clear that both dreams were strongly optimistic projections about the transplant. In the first one, the operation was
Speaker 1 01:26:04 Painless and almost other worldly. I was the baby, a male baby for some reason. And the second dream I was myself. Although the four glasses of milk did suggest a baby or a small child in both dreams, the opportunity,
Speaker 0 01:26:19 Fucking eighties and people were all about milk back then
Speaker 1 01:26:26 A week later, I had a third and more elaborate dream. Ooh, I was pregnant, but my skin was translucent, which allowed me to see the baby within. It looked like a little ITI Fakir as it waived, it’s tiny hand,
Speaker 0 01:26:44 But it sounds like a literal nightmare,
Speaker 1 01:26:46 But the baby’s face was the face of my mother. I was about to give birth to my own mother.
Speaker 0 01:26:56 Yeah. That’s a literal nightmare. I stand by what I said originally.
Speaker 1 01:27:00 I know I just wanted to get to that point, but Oh my God. Yes. Sorry, Bob. But like, I mean, we love your mom. This is traumatizing for anyone. No matter what, who knows. I was going to say no matter what your mother is, but I stand by that statement in the stream. I realized later the terrestrial creature. Oh, sorry. I, I, I just read a portion of that word. The extra terrestrial creature was greeting me from his capsule in my inner world, which I love how she’s like, I was pregnant with my own mother. He,
Speaker 0 01:27:52 I mean, who knows
Speaker 1 01:27:55 Exactly. No, it’s very interesting, but I just, I didn’t realize that until just now to be honest, um, from his capsule in my inner world, although he hadn’t yet arrived, he was holding up the open hand of friendship. He was my child, a harbinger
Speaker 0 01:28:13 Or harbinger harbinger.
Speaker 1 01:28:15 Let’s say you say it. Okay. I harbinger of my new post-transplant self, but he was also my mother. I was carrying, I, it is very weird in effect. I was carrying the embryo that would give birth to my new life. Yeah. Yeah. But I just like, I love those dreams. I was like, EO,
Speaker 0 01:28:37 I was pregnant with ETF, but he was also my mom.
Speaker 1 01:28:41 Yeah. Yeah. So that’s nothing. My mind is like shape-shifting ETS face and to like multiple women’s faces, it’s upsetting.
Speaker 0 01:28:52 See, I’m picturing E T with the blanket over his head in the bike while also shape-shifting into different worlds,
Speaker 1 01:29:00 But he’s in inner world.
Speaker 6 01:29:02 Oh no, no, no. It’s when he puts on the wig.
Speaker 3 01:29:08 Okay. I like that much better actually. Yeah. When he was like, I’ll just stop us the dog. He’s like, yep. He’s going to be
Speaker 6 01:29:15 Or bold blonde. Ringlets like, yeah.
Speaker 3 01:29:19 Maybe that’s what Bart and be like, you know, ETN Barbie, Barbie. Yeah. That CTS world. And we’re just living in it. Okay. Okay. So the two weeks go by
Speaker 3 01:29:32 And Claire goes in for her evaluation with Gail. And now Claire has already, like I said, done and evaluation with John Hopkins the year before no success getting a transplant. And she says the evaluation at Yale was much shorter and much simpler than the one at Hopkins scale brought me in to meet Dr. Baldwin. And even though they were interviewing me, I also felt like I was interviewing them. Um, so she’s back at our apartment the next day after the evaluation, uh, Claire said she was reading the patient handbook that guilt or had given her and Barbara came over to talk to her about how it all went with Gail and the evaluation while they were eating chocolate cake and vanilla ice cream phone rang. Yeah. I know it was a good choice, but yet, while they were chilling the fucking phone ring, Claire picked it up to hear Gil Eddie’s voice on the other line saying Claire it’s scale, Eddie 17 hours ago, just after you left, we received permission to open the program.
Speaker 3 01:30:34 We listed you right away and we have a donor for you today. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about how I’ll just live for two more weeks. And then they’re like, hi. Hello. And she’s like, Oh, thank God. So obviously the procedure was a success and yes, hooray. Similarly for Claire and much to her own amazement, three days after the surgery, she was up on an exercise bike, bruh. Yeah. That was part of the recovery, you know, for her heart and lung transplant. Um, so because this was the first successful heart and lung transplant in new England, um,
Speaker 6 01:31:18 Hers, wasn’t the first heart and lung transplant ever. It was just a new idea.
Speaker 3 01:31:22 Correct. And, uh, but it had generated a lot of attention from the media. So on the third day, right when she like had her little exercise bike, which she like could not to anything at all, they told her that she was that her hot half of her heart, the right half of her heart was in total failure. When she came in for the transplant, they also w told her that her lungs were like tissue paper. Uh, and that there were a couple of times they couldn’t even find a pulse because she was just so like, that’s, that’s the, that’s the point that she was at. She does
Speaker 4 01:32:00 Describe this like really astounding moment where she realized that the heart that she had, uh, like she, so she had a heartburn river since she was three. And she, she describes this moment where she realizes this heart has never had a heart. Like, she’s like, Oh, I don’t have a heart murmur anymore. That was the thought that she had. Then she goes, I have a whole new
Speaker 0 01:32:25 You heart. Oh my God. I can’t even like, imagine what that would feel like.
Speaker 4 01:32:30 And you also have to consider like the size of somebody else’s organs. Like we’re not all like Lego people. You can’t just like stick everyone together. So like they had to push, they had to move her heart from where it was and put it farther back in her chest cavity to make it fit with the lungs. Because obviously they’re from a different person. So when she woke up, she had asked them, she was like, it feels different. I feel it beating in my back. And the nurse told her, Oh, don’t worry about it. Like you just it’s in your head. And the D and she brought up to the doctor. The doctor was like, no, we did put it further back because it, we needed to fit it correctly and comfortably for you. And so like, she’s, this is how in tune she is with her body.
Speaker 0 01:33:21 See, I never really feel my heart, but I ha like, I feel it in my neck a lot.
Speaker 4 01:33:28 See, I haven’t always been able to feel it between my ribs. And when I lay on my side, I can feel it beat against my ribs, which I don’t know if it’s just my pulse or my heart. I’m not sure what’s going on inside my chest cavity personally. I just know that that’s what it feels like. It feels like my heart is beating on my ribs.
Speaker 0 01:33:45 So do you think that it would feel different too if the lungs and heart were heavier? Yeah.
Speaker 4 01:33:51 And then yours? Um, yeah. It had a greater mass I’m sure. Probably. And also you have to, again, they described her lungs as tissue
Speaker 0 01:33:59 TC. Yeah. Well, I ship with Ted. How does an alien note tissue paper is?
Speaker 4 01:34:10 Fucking, what’s his name? Lobster head.
Speaker 0 01:34:14 Oh my God. What is his name? Sarah Sarah’s
Speaker 4 01:34:18 Anyways. Okay. So yeah. So the third day after the transplant, uh, the reporters were actually able to go to the hospital and interview Claire, which is like, what a time pre fucking pandemic. Woof. I cannot imagine that now I’d be terrified. But, uh, Claire says, uh, in the book she goes, I was so delighted to be moving again that I clowned around and climbed on the bike where I post her a picture with a paper cup on my head. So she’s on the bike with the paper cup on her head. And one of the, I mean, she’s probably gotten off at this point,
Speaker 3 01:34:58 But she’s with the reporters. And one of the reporters asked Claire, now that you’ve had this miracle, what do you want more than anything else? And she said, actually, I’m dying for a beer right now. She goes, as soon as those words came out of my mouth, I wished I could pull them back in. I was mortified that I had answered this sincere question with such a flippant response. I was also surprised because I didn’t even like beer. At least I never had before. But the craving I felt at that moment was specifically for the taste of beer. For some bizarre reason, I was convinced that nothing else would quench my thirst. Um, so she says, when I acquired a new heart, I also acquired a new rhythm, new impulses, new knowledge, a new question,
Speaker 1 01:35:45 Oh my God.
Speaker 3 01:35:48 I found myself on a fascinating and mysterious journey that I hadn’t anticipated. And wasn’t prepared for a journey that was occasionally frightening. And sometimes you fork, my journey began with the transplant or perhaps earlier, but I didn’t fully understand that I was already on it until five months after the operation. When I had an unusually vivid dream, we’ve already heard a couple of Clare streams. Pre-op,
Speaker 1 01:36:16 Here’s a postdoc dream for you.
Speaker 3 01:36:19 It’s a warm summer day. I’m standing in an open outside place. A grassy field with me is a young man who is tall, thin and wirey with Sandy colored hair. And his name is Tim. I think his last name might be latent, but I’m not sure. I think of him as Tim L we’re in a playful relationship and we’re good friends. The time has come for me to leave him to join a performing group of acrobats. I start walking down a path away from Tim. Suddenly I turned around feeling that something remains unfinished between us. I walk back toward him and say goodbye. Tim watches me as I come closer. And he seems to be pleased that I am making my way back to him. We kiss. And as we do, I inhale him into me. It feels like the deepest breath I have ever taken. And I know that at that moment, the two of us, Tim and I will be together forever.
Speaker 1 01:37:23 Oh my God. Yeah. She goes on. I woke
Speaker 3 01:37:31 From the dream exhilarated as though I had just taken the deepest breath of my life until now I had thought of my heart and lungs as having come from an anonymous stranger, an unknown young man who I’m, I hadn’t thought much about, but when the stream was over, something had changed. I woke up knowing really knowing that Tim L was donor and that some parts of his spirit and personality were now in me, bruh. Yeah. I was eager to verify this information, but how the transplant program at Yale new Haven hospital, where I received, where she received her heart and lungs, um, observed a strict code of confidentiality, strictly speaking. I wasn’t even supposed to know what little I did that. My donor was an 18 year old boy that he lived in Maine and that he died on a motorcycle. I had heard these things from a nurse shortly after my operation.
Speaker 3 01:38:34 The day after the dream, I called Gail Eddy, the transplant coordinator at the Yale new Haven hospital, um, who had been enormously helpful to me before, during and after the operation. I knew that Gail couldn’t tell me who my donor was, but perhaps she would be willing to confirm the name of Tim L from my dream. Assuming of course that my information was correct at first, I thought it was when I told Gil the dream. And as to whether my doctors, sorry, whether my donor’s name was Tim L there was a momentary pause. She says, Gail said,
Speaker 9 01:39:10 No, no, you can’t know that.
Speaker 3 01:39:15 Uh, Gail said, I’m not even supposed to discuss this with you, please. Claire, let it go. Even if you succeed in tracking down the family, you just to be opening a can of worms. Claire says, what do you mean? And Gail says, you can never predict how a donor’s family will respond. People in these situations have unexpected reactions. If you’re curious about the donor, I don’t blame you. I’d be curious too, but please let it go. This whole topic is too emotional and too volatile. Just Claire says I was disappointed by Gil’s response and a little surprise, but I respected her judgment and assured her that I would drop the subject, but the subject, Oh, well, fuse to drop me. So at first she accepted her advice to like leave it alone. Um, but she continued to experience disturbing unfamiliar feelings, um, and appetite changes. You know, she had a strange new desire to drink beer and eat chicken nuggets and other junk food. She had a profound sense that the very center of her being was not hers.
Speaker 9 01:40:17 Whew. Yeah. So heavy. Yeah.
Speaker 3 01:40:20 Yeah. So I’m like Humpty Dumpty as she puts it, she had experienced a traumatic breaking apart. Her surgeon had put her body back together, but not her emotions. Claire says of the new reconstructed person, just wasn’t me. Um, the mysterious entity that was in her body reminded her of a pregnancy. Um, when she felt she embodied something foreign and beyond my control yet terribly precious and vulnerable as if a second soul were sharing my body. Oh my God. I have so many
Speaker 0 01:40:54 Chills. Okay. Okay. Okay. Real quick. Like, so I moved into this new place and you know, I bought a couple of decently priced antiques and like, you know, parentese so you figure they’re old. And you know, my thought is like, I wonder who first bought the desk and let air is a vanity who got the vanity who took care of it, who used it, you know, like that kind of stuff. And you think about that stuff with like antiques or like old houses, because you know, that type of thing, there’s, there’s echoes because it’s been there. But like, that’s not something that I don’t think people think about when I think about like organ donors.
Speaker 3 01:41:37 Yeah. And it’s been well-documented, it’s not, it’s not just heart transplants. It’s not just lung transplants. It’s like kidney transplants. It’s like other people have experienced the same phenomena. Um, but she just really, uh, you know, like she explained it well, but she also like, she, you know, I mean, she was seeking people out from day one and was like working with the, as I mentioned this earlier, she was like working with a young Ian analyst, um, with, uh, she, so she started going to the support group that Gail recommended to her. I’m pretty sure it was Gale, um, recommended to her. She’s like, please come to the support group for people. Who’ve had trans heart transplants, like it’ll help. And, um, so she started talking with people there and then sought out the help of this analyst and ended up, I swear, I bring it up at another point, but maybe I didn’t, maybe I left it anyways.
Speaker 3 01:42:33 But the point is is that they started a group, uh, a group study on this phenomenon. Oh my God. Now I have to, now I actually have to look it up because I know it’s in here. Um, but what someone recommended that, uh, if she ever wanted to work on her dreams in depth, the man to see was Robert Bosniak a youngian analyst. Okay. During their initial meetings, whenever she mentioned the transplant or effective or its effect on her, she almost seemed transfixed. So then she found out like, cause she finally asked him about it. And he told her that for the last few years, he had been writing a novel about a man who undergoes a heart transplant. Um, his novel was about a psychiatrist and his girlfriend too, were both victims of a violent attack. The girlfriend is killed and the psychiatrist is so badly wounded that he requires a new heart, which she provides when he finally recovers. The psychiatrist realizes that he is feeling and reacting to events differently than he used to as though his girlfriend was still influencing him. He gradually comes to know her from the inside, as it were, uh, through the stop.
Speaker 3 01:43:53 He gradually comes to know her from the inside.
Speaker 6 01:44:00 True.
Speaker 3 01:44:01 The surprising responses of his new heart, which used to be
Speaker 1 01:44:04 Hers. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 01:44:08 So he, um, so she was like, Oh, hi, there’s a ton of parallels between our two stories. But anyways, this was a fictional one, wasn’t it? Yes, it was. And he was like, Holy shit, this is a real thing basically when they were hanging out together. Um, but that was, she like, I mean, she was seeing him as like a patient and he was her therapist,
Speaker 6 01:44:32 You know, through this, not
Speaker 3 01:44:34 Seeing him, I mean like their meetings.
Speaker 6 01:44:37 That was okay. So,
Speaker 3 01:44:39 Um, but they,
Speaker 1 01:44:41 You know, she
Speaker 6 01:44:43 Talked about the fact that, you know,
Speaker 3 01:44:45 Oh yeah, this is what she says. I boldly asked if he might be interested in teaming up with me on a book about dreams and psycho, psychological responses of
Speaker 1 01:44:53 Heart transplants.
Speaker 3 01:44:56 We both recognize the literary partnership would be, would infringe on the traditional boundaries of therapist and client. The subject seemed so exciting that we agreed to try it. So then they started this little focus group of people that she was already at a support group with, um, where they talked about their dreams and like their ex their own experiences that, uh, they were going through,
Speaker 1 01:45:18 Um, for their research.
Speaker 6 01:45:21 So, yeah,
Speaker 3 01:45:24 So they started the support group that I could, many of her perceptions about feeling a quote unquote hybrid. Um, and a lot of the times people in the support and the support group talks about themselves as the transplant. Like they like were inhabited by somebody else. Like they could feel it physically, you know, and that they were transplanted to this person’s organs, not the other way round. So there’s a hole there. I mean, I honestly didn’t know anything really about organ transplants or like that, uh, sort of world until reading about this. And there, there is just like a lot psychologically, a lot of aspects that really, uh, fall into this situation that are very interesting. And, um, and I was very glad to educate myself on those. So just a little tidbit about that. Um, so it wasn’t until 1990, actually that, so a year, so this was, so this happened so quickly now that I’m thinking about this. So this was all like within a year because she had her operation in 1988. So 1990 is when she actually traced the identity of her donor through his obituary in a local paper. Uh, his name was Tim and his last name did begin with an L. Wow. Yeah. Um, so she had moved back to hole in may, first of 1991. So she found his obituary in 1990, but she actually reached out in 91.
Speaker 5 01:46:53 Um, Oh, she sat on that for a year. Yeah. She,
Speaker 3 01:46:57 He had another dream about Tim. She said, uh, he was wearing a black Cape. He was about to ascend to a high place that looked like a horizon. Where are you going? I asked him to die. He replied, I’m going to the other side. What’s it like over there? Oh, I come right back. He was pretty sure of himself and had apparently done this before. Going back and forth seemed to be a routine adventure for him as the, as in the ghost stream walls and boundaries that were normally solid had become permeable. So Tim was following me following need to haul. And also leading me to his family. The very day I moved here to a house with a sweeping view of a horizon. Tim had appeared in a dream about the horizon. As soon as I woke up from the stream, I knew it was time to contact the family. Um, almost nine months had passed since I had found the obituary, but I had yet to act on it. Um, so she wrote them a letter.
Speaker 5 01:47:56 Yeah. Um, so
Speaker 3 01:47:59 When Sylvia eventually, Oh, so another thing is she writes him a letter in context of, and then Barbara asks her, why do you want to contact the family? Like, what do you want from us? And she realizes at that point that she didn’t even know why she just had this urge, like she had to contact them, but she had never actually thought why, what will I gain from this experience? Which is just another thing for me really. I’ve just like something else is pushing her to do the same, like this alternate instinct. Yeah. So she eventually visited the family and learned that Tim had been restlessly energetic with a love for chicken nuggets, junk food and beer. Hi, no surprise there. Um, and Claire then like consulted a range of which she called open-minded scientists. Um, and several came up with the notion of cellular memory, meaning that the cells in our body are instilled with our memories. Uh, one of these people that she contacted and spoke to was Bernie Siegel, AKA Dr. Bernie Siegel, AKA pediatric and general surgeon, Dr. Bernie Siegel, who wrote the art of healing, which I did not know that yeah. He wrote the forward to her fricking book.
Speaker 5 01:49:21 Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 3 01:49:24 He wrote the forward to her book and he said, well, I can’t necessarily explain the amazing things that have happened to Claire. I have no trouble believing them. Although doctors tend to shy away from metaphysics science, science, and the spirit don’t have to be at odds. That is why I enjoy speaking with astronomers and quantum physicists who are continually dealing with mysterious and unexplained events. I look forward the day when physicians
Speaker 1 01:49:48 Too will be comfortable, acknowledging and accepting the mysteries all around us. So I read literally the first few pages of this book. I skipped the forward because I always get caught up in the forward and be like, Oh, this is, this means a lot. Okay. Then I found out that Bernie Siegel wrote the forward and I was like, what am I doing? So how
Speaker 6 01:50:09 Elated I never read the Ford.
Speaker 1 01:50:12 I always do it. I get super sucked into it. And then I’m like, well, I just read all this.
Speaker 6 01:50:19 Okay. Nevermind. That sounds about right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:50:24 Um, okay. So I’m reading the first couple of pages of her fricking book, where she brings up the memories and the heart pump, and it’s just a pump and it’s this mandatory machine. And I immediately went to the first pages of Bernie Siegel’s. I was like, Oh my God, I just read about this. Uh, and because in the first couple of pages of his book, he brings up the psychobiology of gene expression by Ernest Rossi, go look it up. And that’s where he talks about how we store memories, genetically. Um, it’s his, an excerpt from his book. It says knowledge and memories are not store are stored not only in our brains, but also in the cells of our bodies. Consciousness can be experienced as a universal field that affects us all. And studies by quantum physicists have verified this.
Speaker 6 01:51:11 Thank you so much. Uh, you know, all good reasons.
Speaker 1 01:51:16 Oh, okay. This is like a booboo slap in the face. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So going on to prove his little point here, he then mentioned the field by Lynne McTaggart, which all of these books are in my Amazon cart, but I had to deal with myself. I had to read this one first, the book description for Lynn McTaggart’s book. The field literally says this, a book which gives scientific proof of the paranormal done. Thank you.
Speaker 6 01:51:47 I’ll buy it now. Can you also order me one and send it to me, please? I will have my new address.
Speaker 1 01:51:53 I have some creepy patches to send you. So I would
Speaker 6 01:51:56 Love to,
Speaker 1 01:51:59 Um, psychic activity, remote viewing the power of prayer and homeopathy are all discussed. The energy found in the vacuum or the zero point field seems to be the key to all sorts of unexplained phenomenon and a quote from her book. She says, uh, quantum physicists discovered a strange property called non-locality, which is the ability of a quantum entities, such as an individual electron to influence another quantum particle instantaneously over any distance. Despite there being no exchange of force or energy, basically once any form of contact happens between quantum particles, they retain a connection, even when they are separated. So the actions of one will always influence the another, no matter how far they get separated
Speaker 3 01:52:46 Physically. So that makes me think of Tim in his affirmeral being and his quantum connection with his organs, right? There’s no matter how far they get separated physically, they are still always connected. Um, another way that somebody describes it because she has, I mean, she sought out so many people and continued to study this as far as I know to the rest of her life. Like she just continued to seek this out and be like, I need to know all about this. She says, I asked Bruce Lipton, a former Stanford research scientist who was trained in cellular development and biology. Okay. About, uh, transplant recipients and how that might apply. Um, and he says a transplanted heart comes with a donor’s unique set of self receptors, which differ naturally from those of the recipient.
Speaker 0 01:53:45 I have chills again. Uh, no,
Speaker 3 01:53:49 As a result, the recipient now possesses cells, which respond to two different quote unquote identities, right?
Speaker 0 01:53:56 Not my, sorry. I’m sorry.
Speaker 3 01:53:59 I’m I’m like all for it. I’m like right there with you. You can tell I’m old hypes now. Um, not every recipient will sense that set of cells within their body, but then, okay, sorry. I’m sorry. Let me not every recipient will sense that a set of cells within their body is now responding to a second signal, but if anyone is going to experience this change, it might well be a dancer who is acutely aware of her own body. Yes. Yeah. As more and more transplants are performed. I think we’ll see a growing number of people reporting these experiences. Here’s another way to look at it. You’re listening to a portable radio and the batteries go dead. Do the broadcast stop. Of course not. You can put a new batteries or you can get another radio and tune it to the same station. Our biological bodies are like cellular radios and each of ourselves is tuned to the same station through our molecular antenna. Our identities are the stations. And even if we die, if our cells are still tuned to our station, they’ll still play it. Even if those cells are now in another person’s body.
Speaker 0 01:55:10 Okay. This also just makes me think, I don’t know. Maybe just cause I just bought some antiques, but it just makes me wonder how a similar theory might apply to like either old houses or old furniture or, you know,
Speaker 3 01:55:24 And it’s like, to me, it’s like the quantum, you know, connection is really what it is. You know, it’s like, he’s kinda in this theory, it’s like he is connected to his organs. You are the, you know, it’s like we were created from nothing. This is the body that we started in. If we were put in somebody else’s body, it’s like, this is the, this is the starting software. You know, this is the operating system. And now I have to go to somebody else. It’s like taking a Mac hard drive and putting it in a PC.
Speaker 0 01:55:58 I just like I stopped saying things cause my brain could not compute. No.
Speaker 3 01:56:04 Yeah. And it’s like, and so the whole non-locality thing. Okay. So UBS observers recognize that it explained certain phenomena, such as animals, knowing skills that they weren’t taught, which was this example that Ernest Rossi brings up in his psychobiology of gene expression of, um, milk deliveries in England. When prior to world war II, you know, milk was being delivered on people’s doorsteps. Eventually birds learned how to Peck off the lids to get to the milk during world war two, all milk delivery stopped after the war, when the milk deliveries resumed birds instinctively knew how to get straight to the caps when this is a new generation of birds that were never physically taught how to get to it. Okay. Wait. So his whole theory is that memory is also, it’s like not just in ourselves, it’s in our genes, which then of course goes straight to your DNA.
Speaker 0 01:57:01 I was going to say,
Speaker 3 01:57:04 Yeah. And that’s another thing about her specifically is that she, you know, she’d meditate. She did practice meditation for 20 years. She was very into, you know, studying her dream. She dreamed journals like for her whole life, you know, she’s like she’s super in tune and aware to the situation. So I feel like the experience is automatically going to be much more intense for someone of that like background. Um, and yeah, no, but it’s just, it’s just what a wonderful example of connecting the two schools of thought of spiritual and mindfulness and this other worldly kind of existence consciousness, you know, just like it’s just on the edge of what we can prove and what we can actually document, you know what I mean,
Speaker 0 01:57:55 What we can sense without
Speaker 3 01:57:57 Proof and what we have stories of. And it’s just very interesting. Um, she has a couple more examples of just really, uh, enforcing this same theory. Um, so Paul personal, the neuropsychologist, I’m writing a book about heart recipients. Um, she asked him, you know, about in terms of energy that exists in our bodies. Um, and he says, anyone who receives a new heart is like, is getting a big ball of subtle energy. Ancient cultures have known about subtle energy throughout history and have viewed it as a vital force of all creation. The indigenous peoples of the world have more than a hundred different names for this force. And unlike us, they have always placed their faith and its power. The Chinese college, she, the Japanese colleague QI and Hawaii is known as mana. Mana is a spirit of life itself and the place where memories are stored physicists call this energy.
Speaker 3 01:59:06 The fifth force, it’s the same energy that keeps messing up the controlled quote-unquote experiments of scientists and accounts for quote unquote, spontaneous remissions in so called terminal cases. He says, I don’t have much doubt about cellular memory. The more interesting question to me is why do some people have the, these experiences and not others? What I’ve learned from dozens of Oregon recipients I’ve interviewed is that the individuals who feel these changes are unusually aware of their bodies, they are often artists painters or poets, creative people. In other words, who are introspective and paying attention. So Paul Persol referred her to the HeartMath Institute in Boulder Creek, California, uh, where researchers were studying the energy of the heart, as well as the connection and possible communication between the heart and the brain rolling McCrady the Institute’s research director says your experiences are not unique. That’s what he told her.
Speaker 3 02:00:16 He goes, a number of physicians have come to our Institute. And over the years I’ve heard stories like this one cardiac surgeon told me that he had observed this phenomenon, which includes personality, changes, and cravings for new food. And that it actually fades a few months after the transplant. It’s not something surgeons want publicized and they keep it very quiet. We know from recent research that the heart is a far more intelligent organ than we thought. Wow, I know. And it’s like, when did you know what I mean? It is very intense. And it’s like, I don’t know. I’m just saying, it’s like, it’s so interesting anyways. Um, the heart is much more intelligent than we thought it, it now appears that the heart has its own intrinsic nervous system, which Dr. Andrew are more the author of neuro cardiology calls the little brain,
Speaker 5 02:01:11 The heart. Oh my God. Yep.
Speaker 3 02:01:15 Um, another possible clue might come from a recent discovery in Boston in 1995, Dr. Ming, Hey Hong, uh, Harvard medical school researcher discovered a new type of cell in the heart. These were called intrinsic cardiac ICA. So, so that’s what we’re going to call them. Seem to synthesize and release
Speaker 10 02:01:39 CAD tech
Speaker 5 02:01:40 Shit,
Speaker 3 02:01:41 Cat to Cola means there we go. A group name for a bunch of different chemicals like dopamine, which used to be, uh, thought of as exclusive to the brain. I CA cells have magnetic properties, which further suggests that the heart can respond and interact with magnetic fields,
Speaker 5 02:02:00 Uh, which like cool. But I mean, we’ll see proof of that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 02:02:09 A similar type of magnetic cell, a similar, sorry, a similar type of magnetic cell can be found in the brain. There may well be an electric magnetic connection between the heart and the brain and the discovery of these new cells seem to support that possibility in our enlightened scientific era. Okay. We still refer to the heart when we discuss our feelings and our values, when love dies, or death strikes, we speak of being broken hearted. When we are sorry, we take heart and lose heart all the time. When we want to be Demond demonstrative, we wear our heart on our sleeve. When a person is insensitive, we say they are heartless, pure heart aching, heart, soft, heart Valley and heart Nobel, heart tender, heart, understanding heart, the list goes on. And that is literally like how I feel about this guy. Who’s like, uh, yeah. And also it has a magnetic connection to things. Also. It has its own nervous system. Also it’s magnetically connected to the brain. Hi, hello. The whole heart versus brain complex.
Speaker 5 02:03:16 It’s just so interesting
Speaker 3 02:03:17 How the two are connected of like this group think intuition and now it’s like, yes. So memories are stored in cells and also there’s this other connection that’s going on, which I want to do more research on, but I had to stick to the book because I really want to know.
Speaker 5 02:03:37 Yeah. That’s a, it’s very interesting. It’s very interesting.
Speaker 3 02:03:41 Basically. Everything is fucking connected. You guys,
Speaker 5 02:03:44 Wait, wait, wait. So she did connect with the family though and they, yeah. And they did hear his heartbeat in her chest. Yeah. It’s a really good topic. Thanks man. I really was,
Speaker 3 02:03:57 Uh, very excited to cover it, super excited to learn about it. Um, and then while I’m sure there is much more, uh, updated information out there, go forth and research and learn with us. Like, um, I just, that is the most interesting part to me about learning these things and about researching things that we don’t know about is that I really honestly do have a hopeful belief in the world that everything is connected and it’s things like this that sort of reiterate that for me personally,
Speaker 5 02:04:32 Like I said, at the beginning of the episode, like I know some people, you know, find comfort or, you know,
Speaker 0 02:04:38 Believe that their, you know, world is just chaos. There’s no meaning in anything nothing’s really connected. I just, and like, like you said, you know, if that’s what you believe, like that’s cool for you, man. But like, I just don’t see it.
Speaker 1 02:04:53 All right. So thank you so much for joining us and listening to our miscall wonderings, our wonder mints, and obviously you are all V wonderful, which is very wonderful. You’re very wonderful. Yeah. V okay. Uh, you can find us on Instagram at Wunderlist dot pod. Uh, I did that for you. Um,
Speaker 0 02:05:17 And by you, she means me
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Speaker 1 02:05:59 Oh no, no, no. You five hours. What? Sarah, you’re talking crazy talk. They don’t what, I don’t even know what you’re talking about. She’s in a time where you guys.
Speaker 0 02:06:09 Yeah, that makes sense. So, yeah. Thanks for listening to us. And, uh, you know, don’t forget if you really think about it. Everything is weird. And so are you, and so are you,
Speaker 1 02:06:24 And so are you okay?
Speaker 2 02:06:26 .